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 Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.

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PostSubject: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:15 pm

Theory: Max has two entities he's dealing with here: The scrap dragon (in the bat) and some big, unseen, ancient evil entity (the one that spoke to Doorman).

Proof: Nothing more than a hunch, really, along with the comment posted here.

Potentially, if this is true, it would mean that these two could fight each other over Max. It could also mean that the big bad entity is something nobody in the current cast (except Doorman) knows about, which would be an excellent setup for a villain.
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Leo M. R.
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:22 pm

If this turns out to be the case, then it would logically follow that Max has (or will have) two superpowers. However, I seriously doubt this theory. There's just not enough hints to suggest it. But there are plenty to suggest that the spirit that spoke to Doorman is Scrapdragon. In my opinion, anyway~
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Paranaturist
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:57 pm

Unlikely. There's no reason a second spirit should exist. It would be like suggesting Ed has two spirits, or Isabel has two spirits. It only adds complexity when there's no foreshadowing to support it.

Also, there's cues that the spirit that talked to Doorman is the same one that's in the bat.

First is the black spectral energy from the bat (and not Max!) after Doorman concludes his conversation. The energy sort of lingers in front of Doorman. Maybe Scrapdragon's taunting him?

Next is Max's headaches and glowing eyes, which seem to occur when Scrapdragon is making a mental link with Max. When the bat activates Max gets a headache and glowing eyes. Just before the spirit (Scrapdragon) possesses Max to talk to Doorman, Max gets another headache (although he thinks it's due to the lighting). He looks down, so we don't get to see his eyes, but Zack doesn't typically throw in filler panels.
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Baron Von Aardvark
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:15 pm

Interesting point, though I don't think it applies to this particular example:
Paranaturist wrote:
Just before the spirit (Scrapdragon) possesses Max to talk to Doorman, Max gets another headache (although he thinks it's due to the lighting). He looks down, so we don't get to see his eyes, but Zack doesn't typically throw in filler panels.
After all, we do see max's eyes again before they go glowy, and they're perfectly normal. That said, it is possible that the headache preceded the eye glowing; so it's still feasible that that's what's happening here.

Also just to be clear I do support the theory that Max's possessor is the scrapdragon. So yeah.
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Erie, Man of Danger
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:46 pm

I really think that Max's only got one spirit also for the same described reasons above me. I am in the probably small group that thinks that this is all standard fair for a tool possession and the Scrapdragon does not have an extra special power and the only thing special is who the spirit happens to be. So far, Zack likes to make fun of the cliche of a extra special protagonist and I think this is going to be about Max having working with his disadvantages.
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Baron Von Aardvark
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:19 am

Eragon5055 wrote:
I really think that Max's only got one spirit also for the same described reasons above me. I am in the probably small group that thinks that this is all standard fair for a tool possession and the Scrapdragon does not have an extra special power and the only thing special is who the spirit happens to be. So far, Zack likes to make fun of the cliche of a extra special protagonist and I think this is going to be about Max having working with his disadvantages.
I thought this at first, but I don't anymore. After all, for what reason does one write a story about any particular character? Because that character is special in some way, shape, or form. While Zack does make fun of this fact, I think that's because he wants to make the special thing something that could have happened to anyone, such as an evil super-powerful spirit, rather than just "He's the chosen one!". Not to say that that is the only thing that could end up being what makes him special, I'm just using it as an example. Word of God has already hinted at the presence of an overarching plot beyond joining the club and learning about being a spectral. That sort of thing is really hard to drive if the protagonist is just a run-of-the-mill spiritual magnet wielder, and even harder to keep interesting for your readers.
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Erie, Man of Danger
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 12:58 am

Von Aardvark wrote:
Eragon5055 wrote:
I really think that Max's only got one spirit also for the same described reasons above me. I am in the probably small group that thinks that this is all standard fair for a tool possession and the Scrapdragon does not have an extra special power and the only thing special is who the spirit happens to be. So far, Zack likes to make fun of the cliche of a extra special protagonist and I think this is going to be about Max having working with his disadvantages.
I thought this at first, but I don't anymore. After all, for what reason does one write a story about any particular character? Because that character is special in some way, shape, or form. While Zack does make fun of this fact, I think that's because he wants to make the special thing something that could have happened to anyone, such as an evil super-powerful spirit, rather than just "He's the chosen one!". Not to say that that is the only thing that could end up being what makes him special, I'm just using it as an example. Word of God has already hinted at the presence of an overarching plot beyond joining the club and learning about being a spectral. That sort of thing is really hard to drive if the protagonist is just a run-of-the-mill spiritual magnet wielder, and even harder to keep interesting for your readers.

I am going to play the devil's advocate and say that's exactly why he would be interesting, because there is nothing super special about him or his spirit. I find it extremely interesting when the extremely normal or not so powerful character goes against those who are extremely powerful, those who do have the advantage, and the underdog prevails, not because of anything special about him or special about what he has been given, but what he does with the gifts he has. The character becomes resourceful, using his disadvantages and making them work for him, finding the flaws in his foes plans. Every clue I've read from Zack is that Max is going to be this type of character, Zack as said he will have to work around his disadvantage and use the loop holes in the spirit worlds laws against them. On the contrary, the ordinary guy kicking the god's ass to the curb is extremely interesting.

(Example in the comments here Chapter 3 :page 47 and many other places in the comments.)
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Paranaturist
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:13 am

Max still has to be thrust into these against-the-odds situations against powerful spirits and spectrals, punching way above his weight. Having a spirit that's a major player or otherwise deeply involved in some mysterious spectral factional war is one way to make that happen.
Purely as an example of possible pretenses for ridiculous fight scenes: spirits looking to kill Scrapdragon for good try to break the bat in order to get at his weakened spirit. Or maybe Scrapdragon's allies try to claim the bat in order to... something.
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Erie, Man of Danger
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:38 am

Paranaturist wrote:
Max still has to be thrust into these against-the-odds situations against powerful spirits and spectrals, punching way above his weight. Having a spirit that's a major player or otherwise deeply involved in some mysterious spectral factional war is one way to make that happen.
Purely as an example of possible pretenses for ridiculous fight scenes: spirits looking to kill Scrapdragon for good try to break the bat in order to get at his weakened spirit. Or maybe Scrapdragon's allies try to claim the bat in order to... something.

I agree with that, it is perfectly fine and not a problem that the spirit inside the bat has a major link to the plot. I'm mainly stating that i think there is nothing super special about what the Scrapdragon can do and he is firmly in a tool. From the clues given he either is or works for a 'Broken God.' Another point for my theory is that the Scrapdragon atleast thinks he is underestimated by the Doorman. That, while it needs more context, so far gives the impression that the Scrapdragon and/or his faction is not considered strong by other spirits.
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Baron Von Aardvark
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 2:59 am

I apologize, it seems we were thinking of completely different dynamics. By saying "Special" I was intending to point out that protagonists in any narrative are generally required to be special in that they end up overcoming some great power due to something about their personality or abilities that is special. It seems you were only referring to the abilities aspect.

To put it in more simple terms, I was under the impression that you were ruling out Max outshining the other characters in some way that justifies his hold on the narrative focus. My bad. silent
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Erie, Man of Danger
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Apr 07, 2013 3:27 am

Von Aardvark wrote:
I apologize, it seems we were thinking of completely different dynamics. By saying "Special" I was intending to point out that protagonists in any narrative are generally required to be special in that they end up overcoming some great power due to something about their personality or abilities that is special. It seems you were only referring to the abilities aspect.

To put it in more simple terms, I was under the impression that you were ruling out Max outshining the other characters in some way that justifies his hold on the narrative focus. My bad. silent

I apologize as well, I think we both misunderstood each other. Didn't we go through something similar before...
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Lazybones
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:38 am

I'm willing to believe two spirits may be involved, especially after seeing Scrapdragon again in chapter 4 -- it doesn't seem to be nearly as aware as possessed!Max is when talking to Doorman, and Boss Leader says it's a "grudge" that's "too animal to reason with" on page 115.

Also, I believe Zack's said that a normal human possessed by a spirit could develop spectral powers? Maybe that's what happened to Max: some black-aligned spirit possessed him after he entered Mayview (since he wouldn't have gotten passed the barrier before), and then somehooooow... the bat? Yeah, dunno the particulars yet XD

[EDIT] Oooooh, idea! So possessed!Max says he "didn't end up with the sense of humor" in Ch 3 Pg 39, implying there may be more than one part of him. Maybe somehow the original spirit of whoever this is got split and Scrapdragon is another, less coherent part? And after one part of them possessed Max (giving him spectral powers), the rest of the spirit was drawn to him (ie, him unconsciously trying to get into the storage room and such in chapter one). That way Max could be host to more than one spirit without technically being possessed by more than one spirit.

Someone please tell me if my logic is messed up, I'm too tired to notice rn
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Passing Through
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:56 am

No, no, it makes sense. I like that second part a little better. And since magnets have a big ol' duality symbol attached to them, having a split spirit is definitely possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:43 pm

I think that makes a bit of sense too. Though, I dont know that it means he's possessed. It could also mean that scrapdragon and either one or both of its halves is capable of temporarily taking over Max. Which is a little scary.

I think the idea of scrapdragon being split is supported too by its appearance with the red and blue faces.
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KingOfStickers
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Thu Oct 23, 2014 8:21 am

I speculated that Max is possesed by a type of phyce-flame-spirit that feeds off of Maxs' mental state. In return for power. (if you look closely a boy's eyes are on fire)
Example:



Also, this spirit appears to have the same level of wit as Max. Maybe Max gets his wit from his spirit.

So to sum it up in theories:

1. Max has had an unatural spirit possesing him for a while now, before the start of the story. EDIT: Actually maybe he got possesed AFTER he moved. He seems to be a little angered that he moved away.
2. This spirit is a leader of some faction.
3. This spirit CANNOT possibly be SD, since SD has shown no signs of intelligence (as of now). And is considered a grudge.
4. Maxs' wit is a litteral superpower, and not just a state of his mind. Remeber, people who are possesed start to look like their mediums. Whos to say it can't work another way around?
5. It is comfirmed that a Medium can weild a tool at the same time (Mr. Spender for example). So Max may be the same way.
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:27 pm

I'm pretty sure the flaming eyes were just for exaggerated effect. Furthermore, I think you're overlooking the possibility of Scrapdragons duality. It's possible that the "grudge" form of SD that we've seen is but a more animalistic half of a whole. The other half of which would be the intelligent one that doesn't have the sense of humor.

It's also worth noting that it's heavily implied that the spirit within Max is not the leader by the words of the Doorman when he refers to its "master"
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:06 am

What if: Scrapdragon used to be a huge massive powerful spirit (one of the seven), but they were defeated by the angel spirit in some huge spirit war and they were split into a bunch of pieces.

So when Max entered Mayview, he was possessed by a part of Scrapdragon. Scrapdragon then led Max to the nearest other part of them they could find: the bat. The bat part of them is a grudge and the only part we have seen so far. But the other part is still reasonable and seeks to reunite itself and rise again.
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Mon Jul 06, 2015 2:37 am

Also, the spectral energy that saves Max here is coming from him, not the bat.
His eyes are glowing here as well, same as other times the "second Scrapdragon" surfaced.
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Tue Jul 07, 2015 4:20 pm

I like this theory too! I never really thought about it before, but Max didn't become a spectral until he entered Mayview--otherwise he would've gone splat up against the barrier. And we've seen in Johnny that someone can become possessed and not have the slightest clue.

...Then again, what about everyone else? Isaac's possessed, but Isabel and Ed aren't, right? How did they become spectrals?
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:02 am

Eating lots of citrus.
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Westbrook
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:11 am

DarkeWolf wrote:
Eating lots of citrus.
Or also perhaps a near-death experience, right?

What if...what if Max was almost a spectral because orange juice, so when he came to Mayview he almost would have been squished because of the barrier, and that very near-death experience caused him to fully become a spectral?  My god, it all makes sense!

jk jk
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PostSubject: Re: Max has TWO supernatural beings involved in this.   Sun Aug 16, 2015 4:31 pm

Chapter 5 page 14 pretty much confirms Max has 2 supernatural beings. I know this page was referred to by DarkeWolf earlier, but I felt it'd be nice to have a link to it as evidence >_>

I don't think Scrapdragon and the other thing are connected in any way though... I think Scrapdragon is just a regular spirit who happens to have the same spectral energy colour as the entity possessing Max so when Max started to become a spectral because of being possessed, he got drawn to the tool.

Also, Isabel's spectralness is most likely a result of exposure to the paranatural since her family are spectrals. Which leads me to wonder if the colour of ones spectral energy is sorta hereditary, because she has the same colour as her grandfather.

As for Ed... If he's an orphan, it's possible that he had a near death experience in an event that killed his parents... Not sure if it's confirmed he's an orphan and his parents are dead though, can't remember anything in the comic referring to Ed's past. Isabel's grandpa calls him a freeloader though so maybe he just hangs around all the time? And lives with them... Somehow...
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